Ok, so the initial blog mentions SwingLabs, not Swing.
Sun just shipped a new lnf and did a whole lot for Swing in Java 6u10.

> Ok, so the initial blog mentions SwingLabs, not Swing.
Yes. However, no new Swing feature is planned. Applications Framework and Beans Data binding are nearly at a standstill.

> and did a whole lot for Swing in Java 6u10.
Yes, but especially to prepare the coming of JavaFX...

There is abandoning and then there is just letting it wilt on the vine. Even if they do no more dev on Swing it is still there and available unless they explicitly say they are replacing it with something else and that all JDKs going forward won't have Swing. WHich I strongly doubt they will do.

That doesn't make what they are doing good, but it doesn't mean they are abandoning it either.

As a Swing dev myself I do wish they would put more effort into Swing, but there just isn't that much Swing dev going on out there. If you go the job boards and do a search you will find one Swing dev job for about every one thousand to ten thousand Java dev postings.

NetBeans Platform is Swing. There is continual, daily, hourly, improvements on the NetBeans Platform. For example, right now, this very minute, annotation support is being created for the NetBeans Platform.

Hi,
there is a healthy discussion with Sun key engineers about this misconception in
http://weblogs.java.net/blo...

The following are some of the interesting comment from Sun Engineers

================================
Hi guys. This is Josh Marinacci from Sun.

We've all been very busy working on the JavaFX 1.0 release, so we
haven't been as responsive on the mailing lists as we should. I'm
sorry about that and we'll try to do better going forward. I would
like to clear up some misconceptions regarding Sun's support for Swing
and SwingLabs.

* Is Sun canceling SwingLabs? No. SwingLabs and it's mission
haven't changed. There is still a need for high quality open source
Swing components, and SwingLabs still exists to do that. It hasn't
been canceled. Richard Bair even has a BOF scheduled for it next month
at Devoxx.

* Is Sun stopping work on Swing? No. Swing continues to be improved
as you saw in Java 6 and will see in Java 7. Due to the nature of the
JCP process we cannot add new API features in update releases, but you
will see new stuff in Java 7.

* Is JavaFX taking away from Swing? While we have temporarily shifted
some resources to focus on the upcoming JavaFX 1.0 release, Swing
remains a crucial part of the client Java platform. JavaFX even
allows you to mix Swing and JavaFX graphics nodes in the same
application to do some very cool things. We'll have a sample at launch
which shows you how to do this.

* Are you going to improve Swing? Actually, we already have been!
Much of the work done recently has been in JavaSE 6 update 10. Most of
these improvements benefit Swing applications as well as JavaFX ones.
Things like the new robust applet plugin, the new Nimbus L&F, better
hardware acceleration, and the better Java install experience. These
are all features which make the life of a Swing developer much, much
better.
As a life long client Java developer I have never been happier with
the current state of the Java stack. Client Java applications are
becoming faster, more reliable, and easier to develop. And this is
true for both Swing and JavaFX applications. Stay tuned for the 1.0
release of JavaFX. I think you will be happy when you see what we've
been working on. It's an exciting time to be a GUI app developer on
the Java platform.
Thank you,
Josh

===========================
Richard Bair

- JavaFX isn't just for web developers
- JavaFX != JavaFX Script
- Flex is built on Flash, and is of interest to enterprise developers. Why would JavaFX libraries built on top of JavaFX not be of interest to enterprise developers?
- JavaFX isn't a web based tool. It is just like java -- run in browser, out of browser, on mobile...

A lot of this angst is premature, wait until the releases and roadmaps are made public (sooooon) before throwing tomatoes at me at Devoxx .

I know Swing, I know app development, I sympathize and completely understand the mood of the Swing community (having come from the Swing community & app development before joining Sun). I know the limitations of Swing and also the really great flexibility and features.

A number of my friends and colleagues have moved on to Google or Adobe or other places (some of them simply for a change). I could have gone too. The reason I'm here at Sun working on JavaFX is because the scene graph APIs and other platform APIs we're working on are *really* exciting. They excite me as a Swing developer. Many many things we wanted to do with Swing but couldn't, that we wanted to do in SwingX but couldn't, we can do in JavaFX. I don't think I can emphasize this enough. JavaFX (and I don't mean the language!) gives us power and freedom that we've not had in 10 years.

Sun is pouring a lot of resources into the client right now.

Will there be an interop story between JavaFX and Swing? Of course. But some of these things will take some time -- a few months maybe, I cannot say for sure until our roadmaps are public, but obviously it would be folly to chase a new market and ignore our current market. That's not going to happen.

================================

Swing is still much alive as it seems.

What makes you believe Swing is better than Cocoa? Merci for an answer!

Cheers,
Nils

"it's even better than what exists in the .Net world"
This is not true at all.

@GeekyCoder, thanks for sharing those links and emails. I think it clarifies the situation a bit. However, despite those explanations, I've got the feeling the recent innovations and improvements around Swing are just required by JavaFX, and Swing is just going to stay in maintenance mode for the foreseeable future.

@Nils Kassube and cabron, don't take my words too seriously, in the sense that it's more a reaction to what's happening around Swing, than a proper comparision with other toolkits. So take these remarks with a grain of salt, I'm sorry if I hurted you gues.

@cabron: Hard to argue with logic like that...

Hi Guillaume,
I have been a developer in server side java and swing for about 10 years, and I agree with you. Those days are a bit sad and stopping funding SwingLabs while praising JavaFX is a bad sign from Sun.
Yes Java 6 update 10 is very cool (no more bugs in JavaWebStart, JavaKernel, Nimbus LaF...) but we have waited one year for that and the bugs fixed in Swing are not much. I suppose that we will have to wait.

To Richard and Josh (which I respect so much) if you read this: I would be glad if you stop saying JavaFX is so cool when we speak about Swing. I don't care for now about JavaFX since it is not even final. And beware, IMHO many enterprise developers using Swing or C# today are not doing the same apps as those using Flex.

To Geertjan: I respect your open mind, but no, No, NO: Netbeans Platform is not the same as Swing. Eclipse RCP <> Swing right? Swing is in the JRE and Netbeans Platform is not in the JRE right? I care about Swing but I don't care much about Netbeans Platform.

Gillaume,

I for one am excited about JavaFX. I'm not a person that builds a lot of GUIs and although I can manage swing, it's an ugly relationship. The things that I'd use Swing for I'd not use Flex. Biggest win for JavaFX, it allows GUI challenged developers like myself to create reasonably good looking interesting GUI applications.

Yeah, there has been a lot of grumbling about JavaFX but.....

@Kirk, there are other ways to easily create (Swing) GUIs for GUI challenged developers. Look at Groovy's SwingBuilder DSL, or at Griffon!

Groovy's SwingBuilder DSL:
http://groovy.codehaus.org/...

Griffon:
http://griffon.codehaus.org/

@Geertjan

NetBeans platform is not Swing! This is ridiculous. How can somebody who doesn't care about NetBeans but uses Swing a lot benefit from improvements to NetBeans?

In fact NetBeans and Swing are so disconnected that when NetBeans programmers find out that a Swing programmer has limited functionality, instead of asking the Swing team at Sun to improve it, they invent their own components: TabbedContainer and Toolbar are two such components.

Well, I guess there's confusion about the verb "is" in the statement "NetBeans Platform is Swing". :-)

@cabron I've done Swing and .NET / Winforms development. Although .NET looks initially good, things like the Tree View API are just awful when compared with Swing's MVC approach, hanging over from Win32. Microsoft rarely follow their own UI guidelines, and it's easy to get a damn good UI in Swing that looks native (been there, seen it, done it, even got better response than the competing .NET UI).

I don't care at all about Java FX, so when Richard Blair says that they are still working on swing - look at all the stuff going on in Java FX and all the maintenance that's being done on swing - it just says that they aren't taking Swing into the future.

All the stuff that JIDE is doing and the stuff that Griffon/SwingBuilder is doing is what needs to be done for Swing. Easy Busy Cursor support, easier drag and drop support, more components, a standard way to approach building an app, a whole slew of missing components, all these are the things a swing developer needs. And none of them are the things that sun is providing.

I also don't respect JavaFX for developing a whole new language that essentially echoes SwingBuilder/Groovy. And then they spent what seems like a whole year getting it to compile down to byte code when SwingBuilder/Groovy already did that. I think it's a big, stupid case of NIH.

I don't respect the JavaFX team and I resent them for not using a great tool that was already around. They've wasted time and effort reproducing SwingBuilder. Sure, they added the cool timing framework and the scene stuff - which have been/can be incorporated into SwingBuilder. But better than JavaFX.

I'm really sorry, Josh Marinacci. I have been committed to java for 12 years now, as a developer and a manager of developers. And I still am committed. And that's why I'm really genuinely saddened by what I see on javafx.com. Specifically - those samples you have. 'Swirling squares' and 'stock watch' both suffer from animations that aren't frame-rate invariant. What I mean is that the swirling squares stutter as they rotate, and the sliding out panel on stock watch does the same as it's moving. And that's on a quad core intel with 4 Gb RAM and an NVidia 8600. And that 3D 'immersive' battle game. I'm sorry but it's probably 20 years since games looked that bad. The free Flash games my kids play look far better.

If you're going to appeal to GUI / RIA / graphics developers then you'd better produce demos as good as Silverlight / Flash / Flex / AIR. Because honestly, it's the visuals you're going to be judged on first; if they look poor then no-one is going to perservere to discover the wonderful API's.

If you're going to play the game you'd better be really, really good at it otherwise you'll just be irrelevant. And that would be a real, real shame. Because it'll make the C#, .Net, Silverlight stack really attractive. For the vast majority of revenue-earning companies platform independance just won't be a compelling enough argument and anyway, Silverlight and Flex are probably platform-independent enough...

JavaFX won't go anywhere but stay to kill Swing. The shift focus on JavaFX script from Swing will push away the remaining Swing developers to other alternatives, such .Net and Flex. As matter of fact, it has already done so. Some of the key desktop developers at Sun already left. It’s really a shame that such as great software and 10 years’ effort will eventually be buried just like JMF, JAI and JMI.

It may not show instantly and their focus could be distracted once more to fight, Silverlight, Flex, Android and Grails at the same time, but JavaFX and Grails have a lot of general approaches of "Java/Development for the Masses" ;-)

People who understand real development concepts may feel ashamed of such trends, but despite a deteriorating economy there seems to be a market for Web Designers or Kids directly out of school proud to be developing their first "Java Application" by entering a few lines of something they know from their JavaScript experience.

It is more or less a late answer to VBA or SAP's ABAP where companies like SAP also use more and more scripting closer to JavaScript than their old VBA-like dialects.

Groovy and Grails is not so different either.

The underlying UI model whether it's Swing, SWT, .NET or even TrollTech/Nokia becomes less and less relevant over time. Once they really manage to get JavaFX to Mobiles, that might be Sun's puzzle piece in a Unified XML definition for Rich UI game.

Well, I guess there's confusion about the verb "is" in the statement "NetBeans Platform is Swing". :-)

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